Since I have been rather serious of
late I was considering writing a lighter post, but as I have watched
the thousands of people making the long trek to Europe in any way
they could I simply could not forget their plight. It is the
beginning of school season here and one of my relatives sent me
pictures of her daughters' first day of school. They, along with
other neighborhood children, were lined up freshly dressed, with their
hair carefully fixed, to board the school bus. It was such a stark
contrast, a heart wrenching contrast, to the children I see every day in the news who are caught up in the turmoil of the Middle East.
This video is from January 2014.
(Clicking on the lower right corner will show a full screen, which may make the subtitles easier to read.)
Since the start of the Syrian civil war
and the rise of ISIL there have been millions of people displaced by
the fighting. Most have fled to neighboring countries in the Middle
East where they have waited for the situation in Syria to improve.
It has not, and many are tired of waiting, so they have chosen to
try to reach Europe in hopes of finding a better future for
themselves and their children. The shear numbers are staggering.
These people are running from the
terror of a civil war that they have no control over. ISIL's recruitment numbers
pale in comparison to the millions of people who have chosen to flee
Syria rather than join ISIL's Caliphate.
On the news tonight they reported that
President Obama has decided to up the number of refugees allowed into
the United States by 10,000. I am glad to hear that he has decided
to increase the number, but I am thinking that more is needed.
Europe is already feeling the strain of previous migrant inflows from
poorer countries in Europe as well as immigrants from the Middle
East. There is a point where social stresses may be stretched
too far.
Sweden:
Germany:
What would it take to stabilize Syria
to the point where people could return? Perhaps this needs to be
revisited, unless we are willing to up that 10,000 figure by a significant amount.
134 comments:
The Boston Marathon bombers, Tamerlan and Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, came to America as refugees from war.
But that doesn't necessarily mean that they originally came as terrorists. Refugees, or any immigrant for that matter, is just a susceptible to extremist recruitment as anyone else.
I understand that there is that risk, but you can't condemn all for something that may or may not happen. It is not a just way to treat people, especially children.
"But that doesn't necessarily mean that they originally came as
terrorists."
I fail to see the relevance. On the other hand…
I'm not eager to lower our immigration standards. I think setting out numbers of refugees we will take, like it's a goal to get that many, as opposed to numbers above which we will not go, is the wrong way to look at it. They need to pass the background checks and individual interviews. Our immigration system has traditionally been centered around individual visas for individual people, considered individually, not block-grants, not groups of visas for groups of people. I'd just as soon keep it that way.
As for how we should ‘treat people’; I don't think we have the power to save the world from itself; we cannot ‘treat people’ so well as you might wish. We might summon the will, but never the power. I might have you look again at that gum-ball video.
And, I think we got enough people, considering how much space we got for the people we got. It's not like this country is underpopulated anymore, hasn't been for a while now.
[Lynnette]: But that doesn't necessarily mean that they originally came as
terrorists.
[Lee]: I fail to see the relevance.
Well, just because they were refugees didn't make them terrorists. Their radicalization could very well have happened, and probably did, after they came to this country. They could have swung either way.
I'm not eager to lower our immigration standards.
I don't think they are going to do that.
I think setting out numbers of refugees we will take, like it's a goal to get that many, as opposed to numbers above which we will not go, is the wrong way to look at it. They need to pass the background checks and individual interviews.
From what I gather there are already around 17,000 who are in the pipeline who have already gone through some, if not all, of that process. The increase in numbers will just allow them to come here quicker, relieving, if only slightly, some of the pressure on the regions where they are now living. They should have set the number to match the numbers that have already started the process.
I meant to get back to some of the comments from the last comments section, but I was distracted by Marcus in Zeyad's comments section, so I am out of time. Gotta go do chores and errands...
"Their radicalization could very well have happened, and probably
did, after they came to this country."
I think that people who freely choose to seek out a diverse, pluralistic society to live in are more likely to adapt to it and less likely to succumb to Islamic radicalization than persons whose first choice would have been to remain in a Chechen society, or Syrian society for that matter, but for the need to flee from their more successful brethren.
"The increase in numbers will just allow them to come here quicker,
relieving…"
IF that is the case, then the decision will need to be backed up by an at least temporary increase in resources allocated to background checks and individual interviews.
I think that people who freely choose to seek out a diverse, pluralistic society to live in are more likely to adapt to it and less likely to succumb to Islamic radicalization...
One would think so. But then we don't all know what goes on inside people's heads.
... than persons whose first choice would have been to remain in a Chechen society, or Syrian society for that matter, but for the need to flee from their more successful brethren.
Ah well, perhaps there is a reason their brethren were more successful.
In any case, the need is so great that I think running the risk of letting in someone who may in the future prove to be violent may be a risk we will have to run. Personally I have always believed that we should have tried some kind of safe zone arrangement in Syria to give people a safe haven within their own country. But apparently the powers that be believe it will be easier to deal with the millions of Syrian refugees that have been the result of the violence in Syria.
…the need is so great…may be a risk we will have to run…"
I have no need to run the risk. It might be different if running the risk would substantially reduce the need, but it will not. The Middle East has got another twenty years of this no matter what we do.
Half of a Nation has Fled
The Middle East has got another twenty years of this no matter what we do.
That's a very depressing thought.
"Personally I have always believed that we should have tried some
kind of safe zone arrangement in Syria to give people a safe haven
within their own country."
The problem with safe zones is how to keep them safe. These people are fleeing from fellow Syrians, and those are the very people who'd be flocking to the safe zones.
It occurs to me that, if there's anyplace on earth that's short on population, that could use an influx of Middle Eastern refugees it'd probably be central Russia. Lotta empty land out there, and most of it with at least a little bit of water.
I noticed some data the other night: The current ‘invasion’ from refugee camps in Turkey took off just after the U.N. cut their contribution to food rations in half.
Post hoc ergo propter hoc? (The U.S.A. remains the most significant contributor to U.N. refugee feeding programs, and we've kept up our contributions right through the last recession; however,contributions from Europe have fallen off dramatically from historical levels.)
The problem with safe zones is how to keep them safe.
I never said it would be easy, nothing about the Middle East is. It would take cooperation from those who wish to try for some peace in their lives. It would appear that there are actually some who would like that. A number of them are fleeing to Europe.
It occurs to me that, if there's anyplace on earth that's short on population, that could use an influx of Middle Eastern refugees it'd probably be central Russia.
Actually that thought had occurred to me, especially as Russia is such a good ally of Assad. Plus, they apparently have transports on the ground in Syria. It would certainly be an opportunity to take some Syrians back with them.
For some reason that doesn't seem to be a destination of choice though. Go figure.
The current ‘invasion’ from refugee camps in Turkey took off just after the U.N. cut their contribution to food rations in half.
Can't say I blame them. If it was bad before it will only get worse now with less rations.
...contributions from Europe have fallen off dramatically from historical levels.
Yes, well, it does seem as if those chickens are coming home to roost.
Btw, I was meaning to mention that they were interviewing Bobby Jindal the other day, asking him if he would support Trump if he won the Republican nomination. Talk about a slick politician! His response was that he would support the Republican nominee, but it wasn't going to be Trump, but himself. When the interviewer pointed out that Trump seemed more likely to win the nomination as his poll numbers were around 40% and Jindal's are around 1%, he just kept repeating the same thing. She never did get a straight answer from him. lol!
"…asking him if he would support Trump if he won the Republican
nomination."
I have seen it suggested that that the pledge really binds everybody but Trump, who would abandon it in a heartbeat, without a second thought, if it suited him to do so.
Lee's made some good points here. I'll get back and elaborate. But Lee's talkin'n sense here. Lynette lets emotion get the better os reason.
Marcus,
Did you read the Kaplan piece Zeyad linked to in his comments section? It really was an interesting read.
Lynette lets emotion get the better os reason.
I have been told that I'm a softie. :)
British Op-Ed on Sweden's immigrant problem.
British Report on immigrant efforts to escape Denmark so they could register in Sweden as refugees.
We had no other choice but to leave Syria
Lee, both your links are going to the same article. The one about the ferry being suspended.
Second try:
British Op-Ed on Sweden's immigrant situation.
Lee: "It occurs to me that, if there's anyplace on earth that's short on population, that could use an influx of Middle Eastern refugees it'd probably be central Russia. Lotta empty land out there, and most of it with at least a little bit of water."
What about China? A 1.3 billion population could easily take in another million or so and hardly notice it economically and if we're to believe PeteS they have plenty of "ghost cities" sitting empty aleady. All the infrastructure is in place already and the money is there after decades of trade surplusses. Still I hear nothing in the media about their "responsibility".
@ Lynnette,
Kim Davis is scheduled to go back to work tomorrow morning.
Lee: "Second try:
British Op-Ed on Sweden's immigrant situation."
A good and true piece. It could never have been written here in the MSM because it would have been deemed "racist". On that point, and from your article:
"So how are things working out in the most immigration-friendly country on the planet?
Not so well, says Tino Sanandaji. Mr. Sanandaji is himself an immigrant, a Kurdish-Swedish economist who was born in Iran and moved to Sweden when he was 10. He has a doctorate in economics from the University of Chicago and specializes in immigration issues."
The only reason Tino can be a voice for reason is him being an immigrant to begin with. Were he an ethnic Swede he would have faced the "racist"-card long ago and would've been shut up or gotten no attention.
His credentials, although they are impressive, has nothing to do with his position as a mouthpiece for more restrictive immigration. There are a host of others with the same academic credentials. But he has an immigrate-alibi and that's the reason why he's being heard.
"What about China?"
The urban Chinese are used to living in closets. I'm not sure it'd work with Arabs. The Chinese could fill up their ‘ghost cities’ simply by knockin’ out a few walls and making their apartments into places with real rooms.
And, besides the Chinese make no pretense that this a matter of any interest for or concern to them.
"A good and true piece."
I think you like it especially because it doesn't suggest there's any solutions.
Kim Davis is scheduled to go back to work tomorrow morning.
It might be an interesting day.
What about China?
Nobody seems to want to go there. The same appears true for Russia as well.
And yet, left to their own devices they will naturally develop authoritarian regimes closer to the Russian and Chinese models than to Western Europe's. Those places would seem like a more natural fit.
The Iranians, displaying some understanding of American politics, have announced that they have discovered new, high quality, uranium deposits here recently. But, they waited until the Republicans lost their bid to prevent the nuclear deal to make the announcement.
Lee: "I think you like it especially because it doesn't suggest there's any solutions."
I'd much rather read something without suggested solutions than something suggesting completely unrealistic and politically biased bullshit dressed up as solutions. So yes, that's part of why I liked it.
The problem with bleeding heart types and ‘softies’ is that they tend to propose solutions that make them feel better. The only way to stop them is to come up with real solutions, or at least better solutions, and often even that doesn't work. Their goal is to make themselves feel better, and better solutions to the problem sometimes don't do that for them. Nevertheless:
I would suggest we consider contributing to solutions that might actually work, and by that I mean might lead to outcomes we might favor. For a start, more and better refugee camps in Jordan, Turkey, and Lebanon are needed. I'd suggest more in Jordan immediately, starting somewhere southeast of Ak Karak in Jordan, (just to pick a perhaps representative spot--doesn't have to be there), along with construction of at least one decent north/south highway running north to Syria, and south to the Saudi border, and passing next to the refugee centers. Put it at some inconvenient distance from Ak Karak I should think. Add some collection centers near the Syrian border where people could be housed overnight and daily runs of refugees to down to camps waiting to receive and house and feed them.
Jordan can't afford it, but Europe can, and we could certainly contribute some seed money, and, more importantly, we could contribute the Army Corps of Engineers, who, once the initial work was done, could easily put new camps up, or expansions to existing camps, faster than they could find new people to fill ’em.
Major refugee center out in the boondocks, where they'll be relatively safe until it's time to go home. It'll be an ongoing expense, of course, but it's money much more efficiently spent than the asylum alternative. And, we might even get the richer or larger Muslim countries to pony up some of the costs. Run it through the UN maybe (which, of course, will cut down on the efficiency and vastly increase the amount of money lost to graft and corruption, but will also encourage a wider contributor base). After that we start thinking about upgrading the facilities in Turkey (the Turks will likely be suspicious and resistant to upgrading camps in Turkey as a first move).
Might even want to dedicate some open space to be available for Saudi financed mosques.
That mirrors pretty well my opinions on the matter, Lee. And I would certainly be willing for Sweden to take on its share of the needed financing. I might even contribute money personally to such a plan if there was a possibility to donate and feel certain the money actually went towards such a program/project. Shelter, food, sanitation, medical care and schools for the young would top my list of priorities.
Well, there's your argument against your immigrant uplifters (to steal a term from Franklin Delano Roosevelt; who used it to deride bleeding-heart/empty-head types). They're wasting money that could be put to better use--doing more good for more people.
The problem with bleeding heart types and ‘softies’ is that they tend to propose solutions that make them feel better.
Huh! Why do I feel that I resemble that remark? lol!
Actually, I have no problem with those solutions, albeit as temporary solutions. If there were decent facilities with proper food, medical care, and schooling, as stop gap measures until these people could get back to their homes we might not be seeing the numbers of people risking their, and their children's, lives to get to countries that may, or may not, welcome them.
But they can't remain in refugee camps forever, unless you just want to create a massive low income, non productive, welfare state. The ultimate solution is to end the civil war in Syria and remove the tentacles of ISIL that are currently strangling any possible progress. So far I haven't seen much of that being done.
But wherever people are sent, especially in the Middle East, the biggest factor in choice of spot is the availability of water. Because if you don't choose carefully you may just be compounding future problems.
"Why do I feel that I resemble that remark?"
Perhaps because the softies tend to get taken in by the bleeding-hearts unless offered better solutions.
"But they can't remain in refugee camps forever, unless you just
want to create a massive low income, non productive, welfare state."
Gaza did come to mind as I was writing that. But, in this case the locals have an incentive to actually win the war rather than to extend it into the indefinite future on the hopes of maybe winning it then. That's why I suggested a site within spitting distance of Saudi Arabia and continuing the road on south to the Saudi border rather than west to Ak Kirak and Aqaba (and sufficiently removed from those Jordanian population centers). The Saudi and the Turks will then both have their own proxy camps and they can recruit against each other and against the Iranians, and eventually somebody'll win.
"But wherever people are sent, especially in the Middle East, the
biggest factor in choice of spot is the availability of water."
I thought about that too. For the short term they can sink wells. When and if the aquifers run dry they'll find Saudi Arabian towns within striking distance. Bet on the Saudi figure out a way to get them water, at least until the oil money runs short.
Post Script:
Gaza doesn't have any water either. They bring it in from Israel.
NBC Nightly News is carrying a fairly long story about how Hungary has closed its border with Serbia, shutting off the flow of refugees out of Serbia into Hungary--and the Serbs not known for their tolerance of Muslims, just by the way; although NBC didn't mention that part.
It seems that Austria, Germany, and Slovakia are also tightening up their borders, which would seem to leave a bunch of refugees in the pipeline and now trapped in the poorest countries in Europe, Greece, Macedonia and Serbia
Wonder what Ms. Angela Merkel is gonna have to say ‘bout this? Seems to me she's got some ‘splainin’ to do.
Rowan County Clerk, Kim Davis, has folded. She is not going to interfere with her Deputy Clerks issuing same-sex marriage licenses. She (and her attorneys) have decided to instead pretend that those licenses are not valid because she did not personally sign them. (Kentucky State Law is fairly explicit on the matter; deputy clerks' signatures are quite sufficient.)
Looks like that one is over. Little chance she'll win re-election to the job should she inexplicably choose to run for it again, and, ‘til then, the federal judge is gonna let her get away with not signing them herself so long as her office continues to issue valid licenses to same-sex couple when requested.
It seems that Austria, Germany, and Slovakia are also tightening up their borders, which would seem to leave a bunch of refugees in the pipeline and now trapped in the poorest countries in Europe, Greece, Macedonia and Serbia.
Well they can try, but it seems that the refugees are pretty intent on getting to Germany.
We are Kurds. We are stubborn
I see problems ahead with the border closing policy...
Gaza did come to mind as I was writing that.
It came to mind when I was reading it.
But, in this case the locals have an incentive to actually win the war rather than to extend it into the indefinite future on the hopes of maybe winning it then.
I don't know, they seem pretty good at doing the stalemate thing. This could go on a long time, with streams of refugees heading to Europe.
Gaza doesn't have any water either. They bring it in from Israel.
Another region set to get drier. Although I think Israel has decent desalinization capability.
Rowan County Clerk, Kim Davis, has folded. She is not going to interfere with her Deputy Clerks issuing same-sex marriage licenses.
Yup, that was an option offered her in the beginning, but she refused. It seems it has become more palatable to her now.
Little chance she'll win re-election to the job should she inexplicably choose to run for it again,...
Well, I certainly wouldn't vote for her, but who knows what people will decide in her county. They seem a religious lot, so perhaps are more supportive of her. From most of the letters to the editor here it appears that not too many people support her interpretation of law.
"I don't know, they seem pretty good at doing the stalemate thing."
They were (and are) dealing with Jews. 1940 through 1970s Jews were civilized according to Western values and could be shamed into calling off the massacre of their enemies unlucky in war. Arabs dealing with each other will neither be inclined to grant nor expect such an ending.
Syria is moving to Germany. Washington Post
Within your article, Lee, there was this story about one Syrian family's journey to Germany. This was back in June before they started closing borders.
Analysts say it was inevitable it would come to this, that Syrians would eventually tire of waiting for a war of such exceptional brutality to end.
Of course it was inevitable. No one really had a good plan to secure Syria for anyone who didn't want to spend their time killing. And apparently some of the people who donate to housing, feeding, and in general caring for, all of the displaced people decided to stop...funding...these...activities.
This could get worse for those poor people traveling to Europe in search of safety if Europe doesn't ramp up services for them. And I don't mean throwing them all in jail, like we are seeing in Hungary.
Huh! Here's a thought, since most of the moderate Syrians have probably already fled Syria for other countries in the Middle East or Europe, maybe we should just let Russia deal with ISIL in Syria? They could chew on each other for a while.
"…to stop...funding...these...activities."
That does appear to be what set it off among the Syrians. However, now that Merkel has broadcast a general ‘welcome’, it may not be easy to put the genie back in the bottle, and we're not just talkin’ ‘bout among the Syrians here.
After Kim Davis decided to not get herself re-arrested for contempt the "Oath Keepers" armed ‘security’ detail, which showed up to ‘protect’ her from the feds, found themselves without a mission. So, they're now lobbying the local sheriff to arrest the judge who jailed Kim Davis--probably figure to get an opportunity to ‘protect’ somebody in that confrontation. So far the sheriff has declined to oblige them; doesn't look like he's gonna coöperate with them at any time in the foreseeable future either.
Apparently China is building another airstrip in the disputed South China Sea. The islands look rather flat to me. For some reason I think they are wasting their money.
...and we're not just talkin’ ‘bout among the Syrians here.
Nope. I watched a video of someone in Nigeria talking about his plans to emigrate to Germany. It's like the country is the Holy Grail for refugees and migrants now.
So, they're now lobbying the local sheriff to arrest the judge who jailed Kim Davis-...
And Marcus didn't seem to want to believe that there are extremists here in the US. *sigh* I actually tried to find a video on one of those Christian camps that go in for all the fundamentalist teachings. Forget what branch does that though. I suppose I could have dug up Warren Jeffs. He'd fit right in in that Caliphate if it weren't for the fact that he's not a follower of Islam.
Preliminary noises are that the Eastern EU countries have made their peace with Berlin setting their immigration policies for them.
"…, but who knows what people will decide in her county."
The crowds you've seen demonstrating are drawn from all over the U.S.A. Very few locals in the crowd. They may not like same-sex marriage, and may sympathize with Davis, but, as a majority, they do not like having their county all over television for the likes of this. They mighta been kool with her going to jail for a while to defend her position, but they don't like the national publicity depicting them as bohunk extremists wearing overalls and straw hats (preferred attire of Davis' husband, who's been on television decked out just so too many times to suit them). They blame her for that.
Lynnette: "Nope. I watched a video of someone in Nigeria talking about his plans to emigrate to Germany. It's like the country is the Holy Grail for refugees and migrants now"
One reason is folks like George Soros spreading this shit around:
http://news.sky.com/story/1551853/sky-finds-handbook-for-eu-bound-migrants
@ Lynnette,
Here we have Michael Barone, well known Republican pundit and sometimes FoxNews personality, trying to tell us that Donald Trump is rising in the Republican in the Republican primaries because of widespread (Democratic as well as Republican) public discontent with the Obama administration.
The crazies are rising in the Republican ranks because of the Democratic President? I'm beginning to think these supposed ‘Establishment’ Republicans got no clue at all.
Preliminary noises are that the Eastern EU countries have made their peace with Berlin setting their immigration policies for them.
I see some unhappy refugees/migrants when they learn that they aren't going to be able to stay in the country of their choice(Germany).
...bohunk extremists wearing overalls and straw hats (preferred attire of Davis' husband, who's been on television decked out just so too many times to suit them).
Yeah, I noticed that. lol!
One reason is folks like George Soros spreading this shit around:
They also get information from relatives and friends who have already made the journey via cell phone. This isn't your early 1900's type of refugee/migrant flow. There is more information available at their fingertips now. If you look at the link I left earlier about the one family's journey to Europe you will notice that their cell phone was an integral part of the trip. They also took pictures...oh the selfie generation!
... Donald Trump is rising in the Republican in the Republican primaries because of widespread (Democratic as well as Republican) public discontent with the Obama administration.
If there are any Democrats out there supporting Trump it's probably just to try to make sure the Republican side has a candidate that they think will have a difficult time in the general election.
"One reason is folks like George Soros…"
Did you not notice that his linked article was notably free of any connection to either Soros or Nigeria?
"If there are any Democrats out there supporting Trump…"
In the Republican primary? Don't think there'll many of those. I think we're looking at a Michael Barone fantasy free of any connection to reality.
"I see some unhappy refugees/migrants when they learn that they
aren't going to be able to stay in the country of their choice
(Germany)."
Given the open borders policy within the European Union, there's nothing to prevent the asylum seekers from relocating to their country of choice once they're “settled’ in a country they don't prefer. They'll simply pick up and move to where they wanted to be originally.
Hungary is pulling up the welcome mat(if it ever existed there) even as Croatia unfurls it. And it looks like Google will match the first $5.5 million in donations for refugee relief.
Really, what did the Hungarians expect?
I think the group w2eu is affiliated with Soros.
[Lynnette]: If there are any Democrats out there supporting Trump…
[Lee]: In the Republican primary? Don't think there'll many of those.
Guess it depends what state your're in.
Given the open borders policy within the European Union, there's nothing to prevent the asylum seekers from relocating to their country of choice once they're “settled’ in a country they don't prefer.
So Germany, or Sweden, will still end up having to absorb them anyway.
"I think the group w2eu is affiliated with Soros."
If by that you mean he's donated funds to them at one time or another, I thought of that. However, he donates funds to a lot of organizations without asking for, or acquiring, control of their subsequent activities. I didn't see any suggestion that Soros was specifically funding this particular project.
"So Germany, or Sweden, will still end up having to absorb them anyway."
They'll show up where they want to end up, and claim to be ‘newly arrived’ in Europe, neglect to mention the stop off in wherever they first grabbed a meal and then bought a ticket to Germany or Sweden.
@ Lynnette,
PBS (NOVA) is doing two hours on the recent homo naledi discoveries in South Africa. I've set my DVR to grab it.
I saw that. I started out looking at the Republican debate, then the Twins game and stopped by the Nova special. I'll have to watch all of it later, probably on YouTube. No DVR.
Re: homo naledi
Way too much on the process of finding, and not enough on the findings themselves. I'm not sure it's worth the two hours. I did find it curious that they were talking of human-like hands, but there were no artifacts, no tools. I guess that could be explained by the burial theory, but that one's a stretch as even they admit.
Switzerland:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9mLFCr13Ds
Lynnette: "Really, what did the Hungarians expect?"
Other European nations to wake up before it's too late and start with the same measures Hungary are taking. Orban has been pleading again and again that Europe is in extreme danger. I completely agree with him.
Fact is I think we should ship them all to Minnesota post haste where the locals seem, according to observations I have made recently, to be the very most welcoming of every single refugee, ecomomic migrant, vagabond and cloaked terrorist in the world. Plus there's ample room and lots of fresh water as we were also recently told.
Lynnette: "I think the group w2eu is affiliated with Soros."
Correct. It's financed by the Open Society group.
Lee: "I didn't see any suggestion that Soros was specifically funding this particular project."
President Orban in Hungary says so. Now this is in Hungarian:
http://tv2.hu/musoraink/tenyek/186189_orban-viktor-a-tenyek-esteben---a-teljes-interju.html
One quote is:
"- Soros NGO:s have become very active in the immigration isssue these days in Hungary. They demand the border should be kept wide open."
Lee: "However, he donates funds to a lot of organizations without asking for, or acquiring, control of their subsequent activities."
You know damn well the one who holds the purse controls the message. Did Soros write those pamphlettes himself? I'm sure not. But his NGO:s always come with just about that sort of subversive message.
"President Orban in Hungary says so."
1. I notice you've not mentioned Nigeria.
2. A bare allegation by a Putin-loving, Hungarian fascist politician is not the best of proof, hardly evidence at all.
3. I've seen and heard the name Soros roll lightly off the lips of enough neo-cons on enough different subjects to know that often when Soros is blamed all they've got is that he donated some money to some dimly connectible group at some point in the past.
The taint of Evil George Soros never goes away for those folks but instead grows and spreads and transfers to all projects undertaken by any group to whom Soros has ever donated any amount of money (whether before or after his donation), and to any group or individual politician that group might support, and to any project or cause that second group or that individual politician might support, and then to other groups or politicians who might take up that project or cause…. And on and on unto the end of the world; Amen! The taint of Soros grows and spreads never attenuates.
So, we've established that you're one of those Soros people I reckon, but, so far as I can see, Soros may or may not have anything to do with that group's fliers. (May be as tenuous as the so far non-existant connection to Nigeria, or maybe there's something there, but you've not established it yet.) What else ya got?
@ Lynnette,
I notice the morning op-eds are all trumpeting the demise of Trump again (forgive the near-pun). Everybody wants to believe The Donald blew it last night. So far he's been declared dead meat as a candidate 100% more often than has been the case, but they're all on the bandwagon.
And, I've noticed some Republican pundits getting geared up for the argument that this time will be different, and a government shutdown will not necessarily damage the Republicans politically.
Hold on to your hat!
Victor Orban is no fascist and Fidesz is certainly not a fascist political party. Now if you were talking about the Hungarian party Jobbik you might be pretty close to the truth, but as it is you're just talkin' crap Lee.
You still seem to think it's a perfect defense to an observation that someone is a fascist to establish that there's an even crazier, further right-wing, neo-nazi party out there somewhere. Not all fascists are swastika tottin’ Nazis. They are not equivalents.
And, in any case, my original observation was that it was not only Syrians whom Merkel was gonna incite with her public ‘Welcome’ to the downtrodden. (Timestamp,Tue Sep 15, 11:12:00 a.m. above)
In your efforts to find something, anything, you might win an argument about, you seem to have run us rather far afield, almost a full circle.
"Not all fascists are swastika tottin’ Nazis."
And Fidesz ain't fascists at all.
I was talkin’ ‘bout Victor Orbán, not Fidesz (which I understand to be coalition party which has undergone several swings in philosophy in just recent years).
In any case, we've established that you don't agree with my assessment of Orbán; your disagreement does not change my assessment.
More importantly; it doesn't get you any closer to Nigerian immigrants than did appeals to fear of Soros.
[Lynnette]: Really, what did the Hungarians expect?
[Marcus]: Other European nations to wake up before it's too late and start with the same measures Hungary are taking.
Actually that comment was in reference to the refugees/migrants rather unruly, violent reaction to the closing of the border. These are desperate people who have traveled a long way, only to find the door slammed in their faces. Merkel put out the welcome mat, of course there would be takers. What the world is now seeing are rather horrific pictures of tear gassed children. Not good.
Fact is I think we should ship them all to Minnesota post haste where the locals seem, according to observations I have made recently, to be the very most welcoming of every single refugee, ecomomic migrant, vagabond and cloaked terrorist in the world.
Usually they try to relocate people to places where there is already a sizable community from that country, which is why you see so many Somalis here. We certainly hope that those who have chosen to come here do so with honest and peaceful motives. Obviously we have had numerous cases of people being recruited in the Somali community, which isn't good. But both community members and the local FBI are working to try to stop that.
Plus there's ample room and lots of fresh water as we were also recently told.
Yup. Or at least this season(and last) the rainfall has been good which has even helped to replenish Lake Superior, which was getting low.
Marcus, what I see on the news is a large amount of desperate people who are fed up with the fighting in their home countries and/or the expansion of extremist factions, which they do not agree with.
I was listening to a British member of MI6 the other day, and he expressed less concern about these immigrants being terrorists than about British citizens who have traveled to Syria and come home. Rightly or wrongly. But, in any case, here our laws say specifically that we are all innocent until proven guilty. As difficult as it may be at times, it is a fundamental principle our laws are built on.
Gotta run for now. Will be back later to finish the comments...
The Fed declined today to jack interest rates--they meet again in October I think.
The Fed declined today to jack interest rates--they meet again in October I think.
Yeah, the odds were leaning toward them doing nothing.
So far he's been declared dead meat as a candidate 100% more often than has been the case, but they're all on the bandwagon.
Wishful thinking? Or perhaps an acknowledgement(if somewhat premature) that The Donald can be too obnoxious to qualify as Teflon Trump and sooner or later he will stumble too badly to recover?
A rather large earthquake off the Chilean coast last night. Sometimes you have to wonder if we won't end up being shaken apart at the seams.
Switzerland:
Ummm...er...Marcus? I just got around to checking out your video and it tells me that YouTube has removed it because of their policy on shocking and disgusting content...
US boots back on the ground in Iraq?
"US boots back on the ground in Iraq?"
Don't think so.
Have you been following the recent revelations about CentCom changing intelligence reports?
I don't think Obama is gonna let them talk him into putting combat troops back on the ground in Iraq.
Der Spiegel says things are hotting up in Turkey between Erdoğan's forces and the Kurdish minority.
And some of the larger and more powerful western nations among the EU are clamping down on ex-Soviet Union eastern nations who're trying to get up a task force to monitor Russian propaganda.
"[T]here now appears to be a ‘diminishing appetite’ for doing
anything that might antagonize the Russians."
"Germany…is mulling an option to slash benefits for migrants."
WaPo
And ship them back to Greece or Italy; yeah, that's gonna work.
Lynnette:
"Ummm...er...Marcus? I just got around to checking out your video and it tells me that YouTube has removed it because of their policy on shocking and disgusting content..."
It was migrants blocking a road in Switzerland, causing mayhem and beating up on swiss people in what looked like a random fashion. Late in the movie a Mercedes drove right through some of 'em. Probably why Youtube removed it.
Lynnette: "Actually that comment was in reference to the refugees/migrants rather unruly, violent reaction to the closing of the border. These are desperate people who have traveled a long way, only to find the door slammed in their faces."
Slammed in their faces? You disagree with Hungarys right to put up a fence at their border then?
Tell me, are the checkpoints at your borders also "fascist" or "illegal" or a door slammed in the face of ayone wanting to cross into the US? What about Israels wall bordering Gaza or the fence bordering Sinai? Also an illegal door slammed in the face of those who might want to cross?
Your door in your own home, is there a lock on it? If so, what if some less fortunate feel the need to rummage through your fridge?
Or are controlled borders and sovreignty only a problem if they exist in the EU in your opinion?
From Lee's article:
"It was the latest upheaval for the men, women and children fleeing war and poverty after their path to the havens of Germany and Sweden was choked off this week when Hungary closed its borders."
You could rewrite that like this:
"It was the latest upheaval for the 75% men, 13% women and 12% children fleeing poverty after their path to the havens of Germany and Sweden was choked off this week when Hungary closed its borders."
Lynnette, apparently I got the Youtube video all wrong - because the written description was misleading. On liveleak it says it was a Kurdish protest and a Turkish national who ran the car into them. So albeit was taking place in Switzzerland it apparently has nothing to do with the refugee crisis.
This is the (be warned) car attack:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=82d_1442489351
It does leave out quite a bit of rioting and beatings before, which were shown in the Youtube video.
We had some quite hardcore streetfighting in Stockholm just last weekend between exile kurds and exile turks, so apparently that's a widespread conflict.
I don't think Obama is gonna let them talk him into putting combat troops back on the ground in Iraq.
My mistake. You're probably right. There are definitely no US boots on the ground in Iraq.
"You could rewrite that like this:"
Or, you could stop and briefly ponder the fact that these people are already in Europe half-way to their intended destination and highly unlikely to turn back and return to Syria or Turkey now. The Hungarian solution of trying to seal their southern border is little more than blatant stupidity on a national scale.
Last week, Erdogan declared "all that" wouldn't be happening if one party -- by which he means the AKP -- had 400 representatives in parliament. That would give him the two-thirds majority needed to change the constitution in order to introduce a presidential system that would further concentrate power around Erdogan.
A dictator in waiting.
Makes me feel better about our dysfunctional politicians.
If Turkey slips into civil war that will just make matters worse in the Middle East, and Europe will just see more people fleeing to its borders.
"[T]here now appears to be a ‘diminishing appetite’ for doing
anything that might antagonize the Russians."
Why doesn't this surprise me? And some people think the danger to Europe is migrants from Syria...
No time to finish, I'll have to continue later...gotta go pick up some shades.
Lee: "The Hungarian solution of trying to seal their southern border is little more than blatant stupidity on a national scale."
No it's not. Not at all. What it might be is too little too late, but better late than never. It will certainly help stem the future numbers.
If Hungary were to open its doors, and all other countries would do the same, and if the passing was made as easy as possible - do you seriously believe that wouldn't entice even more migrants to make the journey in the future?
IMO Orban is taking responsibility for the whole of Europe's faliure that our spineless politicians were too inept to take serious from the outset. Thus depriving us of the sort of real and possibly working solutions you yourself proposed above.
Lynnette:
"Why doesn't this surprise me? And some people think the danger to Europe is migrants from Syria..."
Count me as one of 'em. I'm way more worried about the 2000 migrants sans identification papers per day entering Sweden right now than I am of Putin. So is everyone - every single person - I know.
But of course you on the other side of the Atlantic know better...
"It will certainly help stem the future numbers."
A real solution would help stem future numbers. (Might as well give up the front door, the entrance hall and the living room to a home invader and pretend that's a solution--when they get hungry they'll try for the kitchen. It will happen.)
Lee: "Might as well give up the front door, the entrance hall and the living room to a home invader and pretend that's a solution--when they get hungry they'll try for the kitchen.)
Not if I'm standin' in the kitchen door with a shotgun. And I would, had I had a shtgun.
You don't strike me as the type who wouldn't stand in that kitchen door with a shotgun yourself. In fact you strike me as the type who'd sit on the porch with it so the trespasser wouldn't even enter your entrance hall to begin with. You might take some food and bring out to him, were he hungry, but you'd guard your home from your front porch and not let any trespasser enter.
Am I wrong on that?
"And I would, had I had a shtgun."
You two wait there like that long enough, he'll get hungrier and eventually come ahead on anyway.
@ Lynnette,
The future of housing perhaps?
As I see ya'll (i.e. the EU) got four options for dealing with probably half a million people already in the pipeline or in the designated receiving areas, and more comin’:
1. Round them up and return them to Asia and Africa.
2. Kill them.
3. Confine them long-term.
4. Accommodate them in your society and on your streets.
Or, some combination of the above.
And ship them back to Greece or Italy; yeah, that's gonna work.
Closing borders and leaving them to languish in the poorer European countries will only create a humanitarian crisis in Europe.
The future of housing perhaps?
Possibly, if they can reduce the cost. I am in the process of trying to fix up a 30 year old house. Windows are very expensive. I am replacing a few at a time, and choosing double panes rather than triple. Hopefully they are still more energy efficient than the 30 year old windows they replace. Judging by the cost of the townhouses in that article most people would not be able to afford the more energy efficient options.
Here, where there is quite a bit of humidity in the summer, we have had issues with mold in houses built to specs requiring a tighter construction.
While passive homes would be a positive thing in our efforts to cut CO2 emissions, we might have to increase our efforts in other areas, like the reduction of fossil fuel use to produce energy. Unless they can make it cost effective for the average consumer to use the more energy efficient products.
I do at least feel I am doing a little bit toward limiting my carbon footprint by working close to home.
But of course you on the other side of the Atlantic know better...
Well no, Marcus, I don't know better. I did watch the video, which looked like total mayhem on the street. I would hate to see that as a matter of course for Europe, or anywhere for that matter. I don't know that throwing Putin's Russia into the mix will be a positive thing, though.
Refugees, blocked at the southern border of Hungry, responded by swinging east into Croatia before turning north once more for Germany. Croatia has responded by closing its border with Serbia and busing those already across the border ahead on into Hungary. ABC News
Only one in five of the "refugees" into the EU in the second quarter this year was from Syria:
http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documents/2995521/6996925/3-18092015-BP-EN.pdf/b0377f79-f06d-4263-aa5b-cc9b4f6a838f
And of course not all "syrians" are necessarily from Syria, but could be claiming so for asylum reasons.
It looks like 21% are from, or claiming to be from, Syria, and the next highest source was Afghanistan at 13%. The rest were from many various countries. Europe is apparently a popular place. Or easier to get to for those from broken countries.
Most migrants don't want to stay in Croatia — only one woman with children has requested asylum, the country's foreign minister said. Instead, they are trying to reach Western European countries like Germany that have said they are welcome.
While Croatia is happy to let people pass through, Hungary and Slovenia say allowing the migrants to cross their borders would violate European Union rules.
Hmmm...here's a thought, since nobody seems to want to deal with the massive number of people flowing through their countries, perhaps someone should offer to fly them to their destinations? Doesn't the US military have some rather large troop transport planes laying about? Or perhaps there are some ships floating around doing nothing that could take a few up the coast of Europe?
Then there is the Egyptian fellow that offered to buy a Greek island to house some refugees...
On that thought I gotta run...
Here's a different analysis of the Turkish situation, i.e. Erdoğan's gotten himself in shit and no easy way out.
"Turkey is gearing up for two months of intense, no-holds-barred
electioneering, in which anything could happen. Security forces have
already arrested HDP officials at will in the countryside. Some Kurdish
towns have been under siege with their inhabitants unable to leave
their homes to avail themselves even of needed are essentials. There
is a real danger that, between the violence and the illegal campaign
tactics, this election will be stripped of its legitimacy in the eyes of
many, potentially leading to a prolonged period of uncertainty.
Erodgan faces a lose-lose situation. If the November 1 elections do
not produce results that are significantly different from the June 7
polls, Erodgan and the AKP will be humiliated. If on the other hand, he
succeeds in eliminating the pro-Kurdish HDP by pushing it below the
ten percent threshold, then it is quite likely that Kurds, especially the
young, will react to disenfranchisement through civil and active
disobedience in major cities such as Istanbul, Adana, and Mersin that
is bound to turn violent. For a country that relies on tourism and
foreign direct investment, nothing could be worse."
American Interest--(emphasis added)
The Logic and Risks Behind Russia's Statelet Sponsorship--Stratfor
They seem to have relented on their subscription policy.
For a country that relies on tourism and
foreign direct investment, nothing could be worse."
Kind of reminds me of Egypt. For some reason they never consider the outside world's reaction.
And if they need to be reminded of how a civil war can tear apart a country, they need only look next door.
Looking at your Stratfor article, Lee, it does appear that Russia is trying to create land based "aircraft carriers" with its statelet strategy. It kind of reminds me of an empire stretching itself a little thin.
The analogy of an aircraft carrier hadn't occurred to me. Perhaps that's because the Russians have to send tugboats to accompany their newest aircraft carrier when it goes out, in case it breaks down in the Mediterranean Sea again, as it has a habit of doing. The ‘statelets’ need no such support craft. I had read before though that they do constitute a significant drain on the Russian military budget, which is already insufficient to match their announced plans to keep it current (specifically their newest battle tank, intended to finally match up with an Abrams, is proving to be a major budget buster for them)
The ‘statelets’ need no such support craft.
Are you sure? What about all the propaganda Russia has a tendency to flood potential "protectorates" with?
I had read before though that they do constitute a significant drain on the Russian military budget,...
Indeed. There is a cost to building an empire. Apparently the Russians didn't learn that after Afghanistan. (Yes, yes, I know what Marcus would come back with.) But we are talking about Russia here. :)
"What about all the propaganda Russia has a tendency to flood
potential ‘protectorates’ with?"
Doesn't seem to me to be analogous to sending out tugboats with the aircraft carrier. The propaganda isn't designed to rescue the Russian troops who usually do show up somewhere in the process.
"Yes, yes, I know what Marcus would come back with."
Gotta take Marcus' rants on that subject with a grain of salt. He's just doing what they all do. According to Putin's ‘United Russia’ party, Sweden is an outpost of the supposed American Empire. The imaginary empire always includes whomever's the enemy of the moment. They never can agree on who constitutes the vassal states; it's always somebody else, somebody whom you just happen to be crossways with at the present moment. So they all babble on about the American Empire, but it's always somebody else is the member.
Israeli source puts Erdogan behind the refugee crisis:
http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2015/09/recep-tayyip-erdogan-bashar-assad-refugees-nato-syria.html#
But that would be the sort of thing Lee would immediately write off as a conspiracy theory. No wait! Is Erdogan a good guy or a bad guy these days? I forget. Because whether it's a conspiracy theory or a scheme always depends on whether it relates to a good guy or a bad guy, according to Lee C rules.
In your rush to embrace the absurd, you forgot a basic of all conspiracy theories. Or, maybe your usually competent English has simply failed you again. Conspiracy requires conspirators, plural.
"The one person deemed responsible for transferring the problem from
the Middle East to the heart of Europe is Turkey's former prime minister
and current president, Recep Tayyip Erdogan,"
One person is a schemer, not a conspirator.
Hmmm...I had wondered occasionally myself if someone wasn't aiming at Europe with this refugee crisis. It would seem to work to benefit various groups.
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