In August 2014 a white police officer
shot and killed an unarmed black man in Ferguson, Missouri. Since
then we have been inundated with media coverage of the initial event,
the investigation, the decision of whether or not to indict the
police officer, and the response by people around the country.
Here is an account of the
shooting and the subsequent events:
There are three issues that have arisen
with this event, the use of profiling, police tactics, and our
understanding of our justice system. All of these played a role in
the reactions of people over the past months.
The first question is, was racial profiling used by Officer Wilson to stop Michael Brown? The evidence shown to
the grand jury appears to refute that allegation. Officer Wilson
seems to have been reasonable in requesting the two men walking down
the middle of the road to move to the sidewalk, and on realizing that
Michael Brown fit the description of a suspect in a convenience store
robbery to try to detain him. But the question that the Brown case
has brought to the surface is does racial profiling exist in police
departments? No fair minded person should use a person's skin color
as a red flag. And conversely, no fair minded person should use a
person's skin color as an automatic sign of victimization. In this
case I do not think Brown was profiled by race. But there very well
may be other cases where the person is. The people who are protesting
based on this issue need to pick their battles better. Cry wolf
once too often and when the real thing happens people may just ignore
your concerns.
The second question is did Officer
Wilson act according to standard police rules of engagement? If so,
was it necessary to shoot Brown multiple times? Was there a better
way, so that he may have lived? Many police departments have
tasers, although even those are problematic. I think, considering
the apparently poor relations between the community of Ferguson and
the police department, this is something that really needs to be
examined more closely. This is an issue where the protesters may
have a point. Here is an interesting
article on this.
The last factor at play is our justice
system. To try someone in court there must be sufficient evidence
for the prosecutor to feel it possible for a conviction. The purpose
of the grand jury was to decide if there was enough evidence to
indict. Their conclusion was that there was not. Obviously I did
not sit on the grand jury so am not aware of all testimony or
evidence that was presented to them. I only know what the press has
published. Brown's blood was on the police car and on Officer
Wilson's pants which supported Wilson's account of Michael Brown
approaching and leaning into the car, leading to the first gunshot. The bruises on Wilson's face
supported his account that Michael Brown hit him. This alone is
rather odd behavior for a law abiding “gentle giant”, as Brown's
friends and acquaintances have described him. Many witnesses were
called to testify, with contradictory statements given, from whether
or not Brown was charging the officer when he advanced toward him to
whether or not he had his hands raised. He was not shot in the back
as some less reliable accounts said. The physical evidence present
supported Officer Wilson's account of events.
At the time that I write this there are
still demonstrations and individual protests over the events
surrounding Michael Brown's death. The anger over past injustices
certainly plays a part in the inability of people to look at evidence
with a clear eye. But at the heart of justice is the ability to do
so. What I seem to be seeing in these demonstrations is not a search
for justice, but a good old fashioned witch hunt. And damaging
property, looting and obstruction of lawful pursuits is not going to
help bring about the healing that Michael Brown's family and the
people of Ferguson need.
74 comments:
"What I seem to be seeing in these demonstrations is not a search for justice, but a good
old fashioned witch hunt."
This witch is real; she may not have been involved in the shooting of Michael Brown, but she is real.
In an unusual move, the transcripts of the grand jury proceedings are available, but run to several thousand pages. Few people will bother to read them.
Fair post Lynnette. (Your normal light rock music choice has been replaced by a Baptist pastor from Waco, TX! ;-)
From previous thread:
[Me]: "Newton's laws of motion don't distinguish between fat and muscle."
[Lee]: "But, guys engaged in close combat do. The muscle to fat ratio matters in a hand-to-hand fight. A look at Brown's pictures says he was fat."
But there never was a hand-to-hand fight. Brown reached in and punched Wilson while the latter was seated in his vehicle. The weight behind a punch can certainly be provided by fat. When the two were outside in the final fatal confrontation, you'd be nuts to let an aggressor -- even a flabby one -- close enough to possibly take and shoot you with your own gun. That's part of the problem of being armed -- it ups the stakes for everyone.
Personally I'd like to think I'd have shot his knee caps off first, but that's easy to say for someone who's never even seen a gun up close, let alone held or fired one, and I gather it's not the way people who carry guns for a living are trained. I bow to your greater knowledge on this one.
"The weight behind a punch can certainly be provided by fat."
Not after the cop has gotten up out of the car and drawn his gun on a fleeing suspect. Might not have been any protests if Brown had been shot while punching down on Wilson still in the car.
I decided to give Lynnette's writing some time to sink in before commenting extensively on her work. I don't see much to contest there, although that ‘witch hunt’ language didn't ring true to me. After due consideration I think it's maybe merely a minor matter of perhaps one inartful phrasing. (Or, maybe not, maybe a 'witch hunt’ is exactly what she meant there.)
The way I see it is this: Ferguson initially exploded, ‘cause Ferguson was already on edge for several reasons, some directly related to some poor race relations, some exaggerated by those racial tensions. But, the explosion had a spark, and the spark wasn't the shooting of Michael Brown, it was the very public howling set up by Brown's partner in crime, one Dorian Johnson, that Brown had been shot in the back.
The protests and trashing of Ferguson began almost immediately after that bit of misinformation hit the news media.
After that the ‘race men’ on both sides moved in. FoxNews and the affiliated RadioRightWing adopted Ferguson as their latest law and order cause. Old-time black activists with not enough to do these days seized on it from the other side. Since then, this has become something of a political grudge match fed by people whose business it is to keep political grudge matches going. Mainstream media, looking for a story, hyped the grudge match for ratings. Some people bought into it. Some people did not.
After four white cops were acquited of the beating of Rodney King, just over 20 years ago, 53 people died in the riots in Los Angeles alone. And there were further protests and riots scattered all across the country. And Rodney King survived the beating, indeed recovered almost fully.
So, in spite of the worst that the worst could whip up. We came through this one reasonably well.
"Not after the cop has gotten up out of the car and drawn his gun on a fleeing suspect. Might not have been any protests if Brown had been shot while punching down on Wilson still in the car. "
That's what I said. Different factors at play after that. If the cop bore any culpability it was because of that unnecessary decision to give chase alone.
"Since then, this has become something of a political grudge match fed by people whose business it is to keep political grudge matches going."
Political grudge match or race grudge match? Even I watch the US news enough to know y'all have a considerable ongoing problem in that area (as well as having experienced it first hand).
I had just fallen asleep last night when I was awoken by a loud bomb blast. Turnes out someone bombed, for the second time this year, an inner city courthouse. The damage is not that bad, here's a picture:
http://www.anony.ws/image/DFUd
But note the balconies to the left of the police car have been pushed inwards by the blast. This tells us there was no shrapnel or the damages would have been way worse but still a powerful bomb with a large blast radius. I live about 2 kilometers away and as I said I woke up and thought "that sounded like a bomb".
Police is speculating it's revenge on them and the courts for a few operations they have ongoing aimed at our worst criminal gangs here. I'd place my own bets on that too.
"…or race grudge match? …y'all have a considerable ongoing problem in that
area."
A lot of our racial conflict is political. Blacks don't vote 90% Democratic by accident. And Republicans haven't not noticed. A lot of the teabagger rhetoric is aimed at ‘redistribution’, i.e. ‘takin’ stuff from us and givin’ it them “other” people.’
That' s not all of it, of course. Human beings are tribal bigots by nature, but there's more of it political than most folks realize. There have been some recent studies that found that political polarization and tribalization actually trumps race among Americans.
Post Script:
And there's damn little incentive on either side to keep the racial grudges active, absent their political ramifications, i.e. incitement and activization of the base, which provides the incentives both for FoxNews and their affiliated RadioRightWing and for Al Sharpton and his ilk on the other side.
"…a loud bomb blast…"
Professional criminals don't usually resort to bombs over here. Makes the general population mad and tends them to vote increases in police spending. (Street violence is another matter; that tends to get blamed on minorities whether it was an ethnic conflict or not--more politics.)
Sixteen people were arrested in Ferguson on Friday night. Fifteen of them, all but one, were from out-of-state.
Well, maybe they're not really there for a witch hunt but for a chance to blow off some steam and raise some hell.
Lee: "Professional criminals don't usually resort to bombs over here. Makes the general population mad and tends them to vote increases in police spending."
I would assume they generally reason the same way over here. For sure the biker gangs have had a tendency to bury the hatchet when needed to avoid some scrutiny and make better business. But we have many gangs in this town and maybe some young hotheads among them are lashing out. That would be my guess.
What's a bit worrying to me is the capability it shows. If that bomb had gone off in a crowd and been sitting in a barrel of ball bearings it could have killed lots and lots of people.
Sweden has the highest number per capita, in the west, of "residents" who have gone down to Iraq/Syria to fight for IS:
http://www.rferl.org/contentinfographics/foreign-fighters-syria-iraq-is-isis-isil-infographic/26584940.html
I'm not at all surprised. If you accept the largest number per capita from that region it stands to reason you'll also be the largest per capita terroism sponsor. It's all very logical.
Which will of course also mean we'll get the largest number of returnees who may or may not want to kill us infidels (who sponsor them will wellfare, spending money and give them homes).
I just feel so f-cking greatful I think I'll celebrate with a monday night falafel!
Have ya'll seen Zeyads 'ol place recently? He seems to be in full IS swing that guy. Praising those "warriors" who bravely rape and kill civilians as they go along.
He even cheered that they put tanks against them pesky Kurds as of late.
Never mind that not ONE arabic nation has ever successfully built a main battle tank, nor a shell to go into one, nor the refineries to get the fuel to run it, nor even the equipment to get the oil out of the ground to feed the refineries. Nor anything else of much use at all for that matter.
So ya'll looted a few tools, and are now on a rampage. Where do you, Zeyad, think that'll get your "bois" to in the longer run?
Lemme tell ya: they'll run around Anbar with their black flags and that's it. That's all they can do.
Possibly they can send one or a few diehards back to the west (which fed and clothed them) to take "revenge" by blowing some shit up. But it will still only be pinpricks, nothing that will really matter.
I bet in the end the Persians will just eat ya'll up, unless the "west" prevents that from happening.
They could, you know, the persians, they could run right the h-ll over you unless they feared western retaliation for doin' so. In the end I say you'll get to bow down to Persian masters. And good riddance!
Reckon he's gonna drop by to read that?
(Your normal light rock music choice has been replaced by a Baptist pastor from Waco, TX! ;-)
lol! I didn't check to see who the singer was. I liked the title and the song. We all need to believe once in a while that there is a happier place where we are all accepted as we are. :)
I'm listening to CMA Classic Christmas songs right now. Relaxing.
"a happier place where we are all accepted as we are. :)"
Waco? :) :) :)
Classic Christmas songs fill me with angst. They remind me of shopping on the 24th December, desperately searching denuded store shelves for something -- anything -- appropriate for godchildren whose ages, let alone toy preferences, I can't remember.
This year it's gonna be all online, right down to the Christmas food delivery from the supermarket. I aim not to hear a single bar of Christmas music in a commercial environment :)
Personally I'd like to think I'd have shot his knee caps off first, but that's easy to say for someone who's never even seen a gun up close, let alone held or fired one, and I gather it's not the way people who carry guns for a living are trained.
I'm not an expert on this either, but I think that kind of shooting is easier said than done, which is why the training is to aim for center of mass.
Not to say this applies to what happened with Michael Brown, but I have read that those who are high on drugs can be very difficult to stop. If that is what Officer Wilson thought he might be facing, considering Brown's behavior in hitting him earlier, it might explain why he shot so many times at Brown later.
Waco? :) :) :)
lol! Only if you believe it's heaven. :)
This year it's gonna be all online, right down to the Christmas food delivery from the supermarket.
You and a lot of other people. I did actually find a present for my parents on Black Friday. It wasn't intentional, it just jumped out at me as I was passing by during one of my usual stops. ;) Really it wasn't bad being out and about doing my usual errands. I kind of nibbled around the edges of Black Friday. lol!
(Or, maybe not, maybe a 'witch hunt’ is exactly what she meant there.)
The behavior of some of the protesters has reminded me of the Salem witch hunts. They seemed to have found Wilson guilty without even looking closely at any evidence.
And Rodney King survived the beating, indeed recovered almost fully.
I had to Google his death to see if I remembered right how his life ended. He was using drugs, including PCP, at the time of his drowning. Not a good ending.
Police is speculating it's revenge on them and the courts for a few operations they have ongoing aimed at our worst criminal gangs here. I'd place my own bets on that too.
Something like that happened just the other day in Austin, TX. Only the guy used a gun to shoot up some government buildings, and strangely, the Mexican consulate. He was shot and killed by police.
That would be rather disturbing, to be woken up by a bomb blast!
Lemme tell ya: they'll run around Anbar with their black flags and that's it.
Funny you should mention Anbar. I was just reading an article in my paper about the highway from Jordan running through that region. Apparently there are still some pretty brave, or foolish, truck drivers still using that route to bring in goods to Iraqi cities. They have to pay a high "toll" to ISIL checkpoints, but they still manage to bring in needed supplies. A dangerous line of work...
There's some pretty chilling online video about that highway. If the ISIL boys don't like the look of you, it doesn't matter whether you're willing to pay their tribute. There's one of three truck drivers who don't manage to recite their prayers convincingly enough -- they end up strung from a metal frame with garotting wire while their trucks burn.
Lee: "Reckon he's gonna drop by to read that?"
That's what I wanted to find out. He ain't gonna come by and debate weather in Minnesota with Lynnette or bicker about nuclear fusion with you or Pete. But that comment would have got his attention if he came across it. Too juicy a bone to just let lie there.
"…but I think that kind of shooting is easier said than done…"
Wilson fired twelve rounds (had to been a 9mm) and hit Brown six times, this from inside of 10-15 yards. Not a marksman.
There's some pretty chilling online video about that highway.
I bet. I can't imagine ISIL being overly lenient with those they feel are not one of "them", so to speak.
Those who have to deal with them are going to have to walk a fine line(unless they have large guns backing them up).
Not a marksman.
That was my thought in looking at the placement of his shots. He was a young police officer who ran into a terrible situation that he couldn't handle. A man lost his life and a country exploded. Not a good legacy for the history books.
"He was a young police officer who ran into a terrible situation that he
couldn't handle."
I'm not so sure he handled it wrong. (He made a terrible witness, but that may well have been the prosecutor's fault.)
I look at what happened (according to the majority of the witnesses, supported by the physical evidence) and the only conclusion I can come to is that any white kid around here who tried that on a cop would almost certainly have gotten himself shot and the cop shooting to kill.
Speaking of weather, here is an interesting and at the same time disturbing article. Perhaps we are beyond the debate point, it is do or consign those who come after us to a rather terrible fate.
I look at what happened...
I should dig up those transcripts and read them. I would be really interested to know how the whole thing with Brown attacking Wilson in the car started. I mean he hadn't even left the car.
Maybe if I find some time later.
You could probably get by with synopses (as long as you select some from people with opposing viewpoints as to whether or not Wilson should have been charged). Wilson said some foolish things that seem to me to have been plainly coached by lawyers, but the facts that'r important are easy enough to pull out of the four hours’ plus worth of Wilson testimony. Also the prosecutor will take you down an irrelevant rabbit hole regarding Brown's possible marijuana use scenarios if you go for the full transcript, among other wanderings in the wilderness.
I'm no lawyer so I'm not sure what would have been allowed in court regarding any past marijuana use by Brown. I know there was some found in his system at the time of his death. To what point possible long term marijauna use might have been a factor in his behavior at the time of his confrontation with Wilson I suppose would have only been allowed up to the point of any medical evidence.
"I'm no lawyer so I'm not sure what would have been allowed in court
regarding any past marijuana use by Brown."
This was a grand jury inquiry, not criminal court. And Brown had no representation there anyway. The prosecutor was free to present anything and everything the grand jury would sit still and listen to. I suspect he may have bored them to restlessness before he gave it up.
Seems al-Baghdadi has misplaced a wife.
This was a grand jury inquiry, not criminal court.
Yeah, I know. For some reason I'm thinking the prosecutor has more latitude in what he/she presents than in criminal court. Or maybe I just picked that up from one of the legal thrillers I've read.
Lee: "Reckon he's gonna drop by to read that?"
Marcus: That's what I wanted to find out.
Nah, judging by his last tweet that boyo is probably watching porn. We're far too boring.
"For some reason I'm thinking the prosecutor has more latitude in what
he/she presents than in criminal court."
Yeah, no defense counsel to object, no judge to rule stuff inadmissible. That tends to lead to broader ‘latitude’.
Oil War
Ghost Soldiers
Baghdad & Kurds Reach Oil Agreement
As far as I can tell from the article, Baghdad has promised to keep the promise to share revenues that they broke earlier. I notice the deal is being praised by Baghdad authorities and by Washington. Didn't see any quotes from any Kurdish leaders.
"…al-Baghdadi has misplaced a wife."
I believe he has backups.
I believe he has backups.
ROFL!
As far as I can tell from the article, Baghdad has promised to keep the promise to share revenues that they broke earlier.
*sigh*
Well, at least it's something. They also mentioned that the new PM was going to try to crack down on corruption. I hope that is the case. But it will be a long hard battle, I'm thinking, to wean Iraqis off old habits.
"They also mentioned that the new PM…"
Abadi talks a good game. Delivering is another matter. I wish him luck on the delivering part.
As for the deal with the Kurds, the devil's always in the details on those types of things, and we've not gotten much in the way of details yet. I was just noticing that WaPo didn't have any Kurdish officials on record talkin’ up the deal. May not mean anything. But, then again…
Kind of an interesting story here about Mount Ararat. It has some beautiful pictures of that area of Turkey. They and the story make it clear how bleak and tenuous life in that region can be. With all the stories about fighting between the Turks and the Kurds you tend to forget about the back stories.
Jihadis sick of broken iPods and doing the washing up
After our recent elections I wrote this about our new leftist government:
"Today they write off 13% of the people and when their government will fail, which I anticipate will be not this fall but next fall, those 13% will rise to 20%."
I was wrong, the leftist cabal collapsed after only 2 months because they couldn't get their budget through parliament.
It seems they played sort of a chicken race where they didn't believe the Sweden Democrats would have the guts to actually bring down the government. To be truthful I myself thought SD would wait a year - hence my previous analysis - to let the new government have some time to get increasingly unpopular before they killed it off. But they went for the jugular straight away instead.
Very interesting times in our little country right now. Whether SD will reach 20% in such a short period since our last elections I'm doubtful about. But I am convinced they will grow. Pin me down for 16% as my best guess.
Jihadis sick of broken iPods and doing the washing up
Considering that some of those recruits are simply lost kids looking for a place then it was only inevitable that they would become disillusioned with ISIL. Their slick advertising is just that, slick, no reality involved at all.
I was wrong, the leftist cabal collapsed after only 2 months because they couldn't get their budget through parliament.
Why does that sound familiar? Are you saying that we aren't the only ones who can't get our act together?
Another case of a grand jury refusing to indict a police officer after a suspect died. After watching the video I'm not sure if it was the choke hold that lead to his death or the pile of police officers that fell on top of him. Or both. But in any case it appeared to me that the police actions were in excess of what was necessary. This man, while he may have been verbally resisting, wasn't physically attacking the police officers.
"I'm not sure if it was the choke hold that lead to his death or the pile
of police officers that fell on top of him."
‘Piled’ on top of him’ I should say. They were coming in on him intentionally. Or so it looked to me.
You didn't mention that he had asthma. Once they set off an asthma attack (or his asthma got set off, to put it more favorably to the police) the cops piled on his chest were a lethal weight.
However, I can understand the fixation on the cop who went for the choke hold (or ‘headlock’ to appease the apologists). That gave us one potential criminal act to focus on. But, I think the cause of his death was most likely the cops piling on him when he was down, coupled with him having an asthma attack right in front of them, which they completely ignored.
They just held him down and watched him die.
It's harder to put a murder charge on that, but there were other options. Manslaughter could have been charged (I've heard that the prosecutor did not offer that option to the grand jury). Criminal negilgence could have been charged (ditto not an offered option, so I hear).
The New York prosecutor doesn't seem intent on opening his proceedings to the public record. That very well may have to change under the weight of public protests. Thing is, it'd be the cops on his chest and the cop in charge of that gaggle of cops who'd bear the weight of those kinds of charges.
Post Script: The video out of the cop shooting that 12 year old black kid in Cleveland don't look so good for the cop either. His stated defenses notwithstanding, he seems to have been mighty quick on the trigger.
Lynnette,
Former Alaska governor Sarah Palin now resides in Arizona. Word is, right-winger Republicans are trying to get her to primary Senator John McCain next time he runs for senate (2016)
Lynnette, here's a better video of the NY situation:
http://time.com/3016326/eric-garner-video-police-chokehold-death/
OK, so what I can tell I have two conclusions:
1. I believe it was totally unnnecessary for the cops to wreste that guy down. He was big but made no real threats. Thsy could at least have tried to just talk to him at the spot or ask him to go into patrol car. For some reason they decided to subdue him first. IMO that seemed excessive. Though granted we can't know everything that was being said.
2. The death was obviously a tradgedy. The level of "violence" by the cops was not nearly at the level where they would have to deem it lethal. 99.9 of people that guys age whoud have lived through that episode.
So my analysis (based just on one video mind you) is an excessive police responce to a situation, that ended up in an unfortunate way.
Yes, hold the cop(S) accountable for being too aggressive, but not for the mans death.
The US and Iran are coordinating joint airstrikes on IS via the Iraqi government:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/04/world/middleeast/iran-airstrikes-hit-islamic-state-in-iraq.html?_r=0
I'm sure Zeyad would be pissed off something awful 'bout that, but I'll say: let 'em have it!
"Thsy could at least have tried to just talk to him at the spot or ask
him to go into patrol car."
I'm given to understand that the video begins after they'd asked him to come with them and he'd refused--told them he wasn't going anywhere with them. And after they'd asked him to put his hands behind him to be cuffed and he'd again refused to cooperate. (Still seems they got fairly vigorous on him awful fast once they decided to go large--gonna teach him a lesson maybe?.)
"…99.9 of people that guys age whoud have lived through that episode."
Did you get treated to the audio? He was gasping and wheezing and telling them he couldn't breath. They just didn't react; wouldn't even let him sit up, which might have been enough to save him.
"…[T]here is no direct coordination between Iran and the United
States… *** ‘It’s up to the Iraqi government to de-conflict that
airspace.’"
NYT
Yeah, I think we are all in agreement, in this forum anyway, that the police over reacted. I noticed that in Marcus' article it is even mentioned that the NYPD has banned choke
holds.
And judging by the other video that was included in Marcus' link, the NYPD have some serious soul searching to do on their methods and enforcing their own guidelines on officer behavior.
I'm sure Zeyad would be pissed off something awful 'bout that,...
*sigh*
Still in mourning over that situation.
Former Alaska governor Sarah Palin now resides in Arizona. Word is, right-winger Republicans are trying to get her to primary Senator John McCain next time he runs for senate (2016)
I was so hoping she would just fade away from the public spotlight. I like John McCain. I hope the Republicans fail in that attempt.
[Marcus]: "The death was obviously a tradgedy. The level of "violence" by the cops was not nearly at the level where they would have to deem it lethal. 99.9 of people that guys age whoud have lived through that episode... Yes, hold the cop(S) accountable for being too aggressive, but not for the mans death."
There's no such crime as "being too aggressive". They either culpably contributed to the guy's death or they didn't. Do you think it's acceptable to unneccessarily put someone at an a priori 0.1% risk of death (even if we accept your own number)?
First gasoline under $2/gal in Oklahoma City.
Yup, OPEC and the Bakken drillers are playing chicken. How low can it go before someone blinks...
There seems to be a variety of opinions about the break-even point for US shale. In reality, of course, it will vary from producer to producer and it is not just about the immediate cost of getting oil out of the ground but of servicing debt too, so those who have over-leveraged will face more trouble. But I have read in a couple of places that US producers might be more resilient than OPEC would have hoped. Any concerns being expressed about jobs in your neighbouring oil-endowed state?
Last time I talked to the fellow who is working out there he didn't express any concerns about jobs. He did mention that some of the companies, as you said, might be a little stretched. But he wasn't too concerned about a collapse out there. I think you have a lot of big players out there with deep pockets. I too have read that OPEC may be misjudging the staying power of the people out there. And too it's a little different economic equation now than the last time they ran us out of town.
The squeeze may be felt more in those countries where their budgets really are dependent upon oil revenue.
P.S.
As our economy heats up it may very well draw those who sought jobs out in the Bakken back into other sectors. The money was good out there but the life for families not so much.
I've read that the Saudi are at least as interested in spreading the pain among OPEC as they are in competing with the outside producers. There were OPEC members who'd come to the notion that it was almost totally a Saudi and Kuwaiti responsibility to absorb production cuts, while the rest of OPEC would produce as usual. The Saudi are supposedly out to convince Iran and Nigeria and a few others that the game no longer works that way.
(Kinda like the U.S.A. trying to convince the Sunni gulf monarchies that we don't necessarily have to whack their errant bastard children for them anymore; the intended recipients of the lesson are proving to be more than a little resistant to the message.)
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